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ElectricRider |
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Email:
sales@electricrider.com Service Dept: 785-749-0949 |
Phone
Hours Mon-Fri 9AM - 5 PM Central Time |
Store
Hours Mon-Fri 9AM - 5 PM Please call ahead. If we have orders ahead of you, we may not be able to serve you promptly. |
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GoPed Scooters HubFAQ |
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Power System quick-menu Phoenix Roadrunner
Sparrow Eonyx
Lithium EV Battery |
Frequently Asked Questions about our Hub Motors
Many questions we are asked are covered in other areas of the website, but there is so much information, it's hard to digest all at once. We want to answer all your questions, as we find that the more information you have, the better choice you can make as to what is right for your situation, and the happier you will be with your vehicle. You can use your browser's "Find" feature to locate keywords of interest to you.
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Can you explain basic electrical terms such as Volts, Amps, Watts, and Amp-Hours? |
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Using water as an analogy makes basic electricity
easier to understand. Imagine a 100 foot water tower. Its height above a
given spigot determines the amount of pressure available at that spigot. A
spigot at 100 feet high has almost no pressure, while a spigot at the base
of the tower has a lot of pressure. The difference in pressure between two
points is called voltage. Now, imaging two spigots at the base of the
tower, one with a 1/2" pipe, the other with a 1" pipe. The
amount of water that will flow from the 1" pipe is much greater than
the smaller one. The measurement of the amount of flow is called amperage.
Amp-Hours is a measurement of how much water is in the tower -- how much
it holds. Expressed another way:
Leaving the water analogy now.. Watts is the same thing as power. It is always calculated as volts X amps. 2 volts at 50 amps = 100 watts of power. 50 volts at 2 amps = 100 watts of power. 25 volts at 4 amps = 100 watts of power. Simple enough, but there is a reason for different voltages. Amps is a measurement of current flow, and current tends to heat the substance through which it travels. It doesn't take much current to melt a tiny conductor as in a telephone wire. Heat is wasted energy unless you're trying to generate heat, so the larger the gauge of wire, the less energy is wasted in the transport of current. So why don't we use high voltage, low current, and small wires? Well.. voltage can be nasty. The higher the voltage, the more likely it is to jump through an insulator like the sheath of a wire or air. Lightning is very high voltage, so it bridges the insulator (air) to get from the high voltage cloud to the zero voltage ground. Higher voltages are also much more dangerous to humans. That is, no one gets shocked touching the positive and negative terminals of a 12 volt battery, yet the battery has enough power to weld steel. On the other hand, 110 volt outlets in your house will shock the heck out of you and can even kill. All it takes is 1 amp through the chest to stop your heart. A higher voltage makes it easier to break through the insulation (your skin) to get the current to flow. Now let's look at series and parallel circuits. Suppose I have two identical 12 volt batteries. If I connect the positive of battery 1 to the negative of battery 2, I will measure 24 volts between the negative of battery 1 and the positive of battery 2. This is a series circuit. Voltage adds, but current and amp hours do not. I can run 24 volts at the same current as either of the batteries can produce, and at the capacity (amp hours) of either of the batteries. If I connect negative of battery 1 to negative of battery 2, positive of battery 1 to positive of battery 2, I will read 12 volts from either battery's negative to either battery's positive. This is a parallel circuit. Current and amp hours add, but voltage does not. Expressed another way:
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| We do not advise riding electric bikes on slippery surfaces, especially commuter motors like Phoenix. They are too powerful for any wet road conditions, and a wheel can easily spin out from under you if you give it too much throttle. The controller is not waterproof. When you buy a kit from ElectricRider, we pre-wire your battery pack and place the controller inside the power bag (pannier). Except in rare cases when ambient temperature is high and/or you are running it hard, the controller should stay inside the bag for protection. If you controller overheats, it may be necessary to move it to the bungees on top of the bag. The motor is not waterproof, but water would have to be forced into it, and whatever gets in should eventually drain out the bottom. Repeated exposure to water over a long period of time may rust the magnets. ElectricRider can refurbish motors in the rare event that this happens to you. Cost is 1 hour labor + shipping. | ||||||||||||
| Our controllers will protect themselves by shutting off the power in the event they get too hot. This will never happen to most people, but if it happens to you, wait anywhere from 1 to 5 minutes for cooling and the system will come back on. | ||||||||||||
| Sparrow and RoadRunner motors have been used on all
sorts of front forks with and without suspension for years, and no one has
ever told us about a failure. Phoenix is another story entirely. Every
time someone puts a Phoenix motor on an aluminum front fork, the motor
tears the dropouts from the fork. The result is that the wheel takes off
without the bike, and you're left behind. Do not put a Phoenix motor on
aluminum front forks.
Most manufacturers claim aluminum frames, but in fact the forks are steel. Take a magnet off your refrigerator. If it "sticks" to the fork, it's steel. Magnets are not attracted to aluminum. Many have used rear Phoenix motors on aluminum. We have not been told of any failures. Cromoly is said to be stronger than steel, so it should work fine, and we have had no reports of failures with Cromoly. |
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| RoadRunner and Sparrow are compatible with suspension forks. The Phoenix motor is too powerful for any stock production bicycle suspension fork available. | ||||||||||||
| This
is one of our most difficult questions because of the number of variables.
Consider these things: 1) Speed and range are inversely proportional. The faster you go, the less distance you will go on a charge. 2) Smooth tires will give better range than knobby tires. 3) High pressure tires will give better range than low pressure tires. 4) Hills, especially long and/or steep ones, use a lot of power. 5) Temperature affects range. Cold batteries shorten range. Please see our range chart for some specific motor/battery combinations. |
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| Motor:
180 days Controller: 90 days Generic charger: 90 days Soneil charger: 1 year SLA (Standard) Batteries: 6 months Throttles: 90 days |
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Using SLA batteries, our largest system weighs about 70 lbs, the smallest
about 45 lbs. The chart below shows the weights of motor and battery. Add
another 8 lbs for the controller, wiring, bag, and rack/basket.
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| We don't think 10% is a moderate hill.. that is, 10% means going up 1 foot for every 10 feet traveled. That's a pretty steep hill - too much for most electric bike systems. All of our Phoenix systems will climb that hill, but we can't predict the exact speed of your bike on your hill. Much depends on road surface and tires. Our guess is that the Racer would climb at over 20 MPH. | ||||||||||||
| Our Home Assembly Guide gives you a pretty detailed rundown. | ||||||||||||
| Yes to all questions. The only quieter vehicle we have ridden is the Tidalforce - you cannot hear it at all. Our Phoenix is the largest and loudest, but even at full speed with the wheel off the ground, it cannot be heard more than a few feet away. | ||||||||||||
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It wouldn't be damaged by going over flat grass and dirt, would it? |
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| Because of the increased weight of the system, every part of a bike is under more stress. A 180 lb person with our largest system would put 250 lbs on the bike. That's within the limits of just about any bike made. A 300 lb person would put 370 lbs on the bike, over the limit of just about any bike made, and probably too much for off-road. Whether you ride on or off road, check your spokes frequently. Regardless of whether it is electric or pedal, off-road use is typically much harder on any vehicle. | ||||||||||||
| We believe there are many, many good choices of bicycles, and everyone can find more than one frame or style that is comfortable and suits their needs well. The ability to offer choices was one of the primary drivers behind our initial investment in hub technologies in 2003. The approach we recommend is to visit your local bike shops. Educate yourself on what is available, and speak to the people about electric power systems. We caution that most bike shops still see their primary customers as traditional pedal bicyclists who want a bike that weighs 10 ounces. If they don't like the idea of electrifying one of their bikes, go to a different store. More and more bike shops are selling our systems. They are finding a whole new set of customers in the commuter market, and those who are embracing electric power are growing. | ||||||||||||
| Absolutely. ElectricRider has invested more than we care to admit in lighter, more dense battery chemistries. See the Eonyx EV Battery page. | ||||||||||||
| Yes, but do not exceed the manufacturer's rating for the bike. Double the battery pack does not mean double the range because it also doubles the weight, meaning it takes more power to move it. Do NOT mix battery types. | ||||||||||||
| Each has advantages and disadvantages. The rider is more aware of what the front wheel is doing. If it starts to spin, the rider has an additional plane of control. That is, you can turn the front wheel to maintain balance and correct for the spinout. The front wheel has less weight on it, though, so will spin more easily. Steep hills on non-paved surfaces can be a problem for this reason. Rear wheel drive has the advantage of better traction, but if you apply too much throttle on a turn and the wheel starts to spin, you will probably hit the ground as the bike goes out from under you (you can't turn the rear wheel as you can a front tocorrect for the slip). Rear drive puts the entire weight of the system on the rear of the bike rather than battery weight in back, motor weight in front. Rear dropouts on bikes are heavier than front, and can take more torque. If you use a rear drive, you can still have front suspension. Note that Phoenix is the only system with special frame requirements. RoadRunner and Sparrow do not produce nearly as much torque and can go on just about any mountain bike or cruiser frame. All said, when you ride the bike normally, you can't tell the difference. | ||||||||||||
| A Watt is a measurement of power. It is NOT a
measurement of useful power. That is, an inefficient 600W system may not
accelerate as fast as an efficient 300W system. If a motor gets too hot to
touch by the time the battery is exhausted, it is wasting a lot of energy as
heat, and you get no benefit from that heat. The more efficient the motor,
the cooler it will run during use. You can exhaust a 12AH battery pack on
a Phoenix motor and barely feel heat. That's efficient!
In technical terms, a Watt is Volts times Amps. A 48V controller that will deliver 40 Amps is a 1920 Watt controller (48 X 40 = 1920). This is the rating of the controller, not the motor. Motor watt ratings are not real useful in our application because motor ratings deal with continuous load at continuous speed. We do not believe Watts is a good measurement to use for comparing light electric vehicles because it is misleading. Instead, we use charts that show you actual on-the-road performance. A large diameter motor, such as the Phoenix, produces a lot more torque given the same amount of power as a small diameter motor such as the RoadRunner. That is, for the same amount of power used, the Phoenix will far out-perform the RoadRunner. I'm not sure why this is; I just know that it is. Perhaps it has something to do with leverage. |
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| With the Sparrow (brushed motor), yes, but it will cut
in half the performance of each motor. There is no reason to do this.
With the Phoenix and RoadRunner (brushless motors), no. The wheels communicate their spin rate and position to the controller, which uses that information to determine which set of poles to use to keep the wheel turning. Since you cannot synchronize multiple motors, you must use a controller for each. You can split one throttle to two controllers, however. |
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| They will work, but do NOT use them. A moving vehicle can find itself on a side or upside down. If you find yourself in this position, the last thing you want to deal with is battery acid. Use larger SLA / AGM batteries, not flooded cell batteries. | ||||||||||||
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Do your systems have regenerative braking or pedal-charging capabilities? |
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| Regenerative braking, last time we researched it, is about 20% efficient. That is, you'd have to pedal 5 times as hard to generate power as you would to just pedal the vehicle directly. Regenerative braking adds cost and complexity to the system, while reducing reliability. When you charge batteries - particularly newer chemistries - you have to monitor the batteries' temperature and ability to take charge current. Regenerative braking puts a huge amount of torque on the bike frame, and bike frames are just not strong enough. There was a company that offered an aftermarket modification to the motor, controller, and bike frame to enable regenerative braking, but it was expensive, unsuccessful, and was scrapped. | ||||||||||||
| Brushed motors (Sparrow) have two conductors, positive and negative. Brushless motors (Phoenix, RoadRunner) have three conductors for power going to the motor, and a 5-pin cable for Hall effect sensors. | ||||||||||||
| Someone did some good research that you can review at the bottom of our batteries page. In general, SLA batteries take around 200 recharge cycles with Phoenix, our most demanding motor. | ||||||||||||
| There are a number of people doing that. Reports are that they are happy with results at first, but over a few recharge cycles, they become frustrated at the loss in range. Power tool batteries are very low capacity, so it takes several wired in parallel. When you put them in parallel, you defeat the Battery Management System. The BMS keeps the batteries from overheating on discharge. Overheating can lead to fire and/or explosion, tho we have not heard of that happening with DeWalt batteries. The BMS also manages equalization during charging. Defeating the BMS means the human must monitor those things manually, balancing the individual cells. For these reasons, the manufacturer, A123, and does NOT recommend using power tool batteries. ElectricRider's position is that as long as the voltage is correct for the controller, we do not care what battery chemistry is used. | ||||||||||||
| We now offer a redesigned 72V controller. Performance at 72V is a little better than at 48V, but not compared to the amount of energy it takes from the batteries. A lot more energy in gives a little more power and speed out. | ||||||||||||
| Our controllers are designed to run most efficiently at their designated voltages. Some controllers may run at a lower voltage, but probably not very well. Never exceed the designated voltage, or something's gonna blow.. | ||||||||||||
| No. The motor takes
the entire width of the bike's dropout. With a conventional hub, a disc
rotor is added by narrowing the rest of the hub. At this time, we cannot
make the motors thin enough to allow space for the rotor.
We are not convinced disc brakes would be best for use with our motor systems. Our motors (particularly Phoenix) put a lot of torque on the spokes in forward direction. Disc brakes put a lot of torque on the spokes in reverse direction. It seems that this would cause a lot of stress on spokes, making them require frequent adjustment to avoid failure. We have already gone to 12ga spokes because the standard 14ga require more maintenance than most people care to deal with. Rim brakes put no stress on the spokes, and modern brake shoe materials are not affected by moisture, so it appears they are a better choice for hub motor systems. |
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| We have our heavy-duty 12 gauge spokes manufactured to the correct length for our rims. Different rims require different length spokes because some are double walled (like ours), some have raised ridges, and others don't. If our spokes fit your rim, there is no reason not to use your existing rim. If they don't, you will need to find a bike shop that can cut spokes to the correct length for your rim. While many shops have the equipment to cut standard 14 gauge spokes, we know of none that can cut 12 gauge. 14 will work with our motors, but they need to be adjusted much more frequently. | ||||||||||||
| We are pretty picky about performance. That is, if we don't think we'd be happy with it for personal use, we don't think you would. We will lace them to a 700c rim if you insiste, but we want you to know they don't have a lot of guts. OTOH, people still sell systems under 500 watts, so maybe we're too picky.. |
Questions about delivery time? Click here for Delivery Zone Chart.
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ElectricRider |
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Email:
sales@electricrider.com Service Dept: 785-749-0949 |
Phone
Hours Mon-Fri 9AM - 5 PM Central Time |
Store
Hours Mon-Fri 9AM - 5 PM Please call ahead. If we have orders ahead of you, we may not be able to serve you promptly. |
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HOME
Electric
Bike Kits Electric Bikes & Trikes
GoPed Scooters HubFAQ |
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